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classic Illusion (Read 2682 times)
Mar 15th, 2010 at 8:37am

streamhawk   Offline
Senior Member
NW AR

Posts: 423
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hey, I'm on the verge of getting my hands on a classic Illy

http://s825.photobucket.com/albums/zz171/kteguru/kites/?action=view&current=Pict...

just wondering if any of you in the know can tell me a few things about the kite. I take it a regular 90# line at what, 75' to 85' would be fine? I have read the original Illusion seems to be preferred to the I2K remake, not sure why, but so rumor has it.  How does this kite compare to say, the Elixir? Any and all info, do's and don'ts, etc, would be helpful, and thanks for your time in advance.

Bill
 

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Reply #1 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 9:35am

DaveH   Offline
Senior Member

Posts: 275
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Hi Bill,
do you know what year the kite was made?  The original Illusion had fragile Lower leading edges and ground work was done at your peril.  In '98, the year mine was made, the LLe were beefed up.  I fly with a friend who has the original and his is slightly better in very light winds. Although both do very well in light airs for standard kites.  If its pre 98 I'd still buy it, just keep some extra stick on hand and save the flapjacks and tip stabs for another bird.
 

Ice E2&&Jungle E2&&Citrus E3&&2010 Graphite E3&&red 4D&&Aqua QP std&&Blue QPstd&&Blue QP vented&&Blue QPSUL&&'98 Illusion&&Seattle made Fanatic '98, I think&&Elixir&&Ozone&&&&
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Reply #2 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 9:44am

DaveH   Offline
Senior Member

Posts: 275
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That lineset would be fine.  My buddy mostly flies his on 50# 50'.  He's a great flyer and has never broken line on it.

The Illusion is more precise than the Elixir, much less pitchy and better suited to what is called 'old school' tricks.  The Elixir kind of has a foot in both camps.  Also, I found it to be more accessable, more groovy and flowing.  Kind of folksy and easy to get to know. The Illusion, on the other hand, is more exacting and willing to dole out tip wraps if you're not on your toes.  This is a different kind of flying than what we do today.  More about giving slack and letting the kite do its thing than managing slack and being in constant control through the move.  A beautiful way to fly.

Finally, a low fast 540 on the Illusion is one of the best looking moves in kiting, in my opinion.
 

Ice E2&&Jungle E2&&Citrus E3&&2010 Graphite E3&&red 4D&&Aqua QP std&&Blue QPstd&&Blue QP vented&&Blue QPSUL&&'98 Illusion&&Seattle made Fanatic '98, I think&&Elixir&&Ozone&&&&
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Reply #3 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 10:05am

streamhawk   Offline
Senior Member
NW AR

Posts: 423
****
 
thanks Dave, that's good info, think I'll stick to a longer lineset, for now. If the Illy is more prone to tip wraps than the Lix, I'm in trouble, heh. I get plenty with the Elixir, just something I'll need to work on then (like there's not enough of that already). Should go a long way for my line management however. I got ya on the give the input, let the kite do it's thing part. Nice lookin kite, dontcha think?

If I remember right, the Illusion was the top of the Prism foodchain back then, or was it another in the Elite Line? I'll contact the owner, see what the LLE's are or what date of birth it is. Do you think it's worth a LLE upgrade? And....from your description, does the Illy make for a better ballet or precision type kite than a trickster, or am I reading that wrong? Appreciate the input.

Bill
 

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Reply #4 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 11:13am

Turkey9186   Offline
Full Member
Cordelia, CA

Posts: 197
***
 
Bill,
I agree with what Dave says.  More flowing and you have to work with the kite, not force tricks from it.  I would call it more of a higher wind Ozone type kite, and  smaller Prophecy. 

That being said, I have seen an Illy flown/tricked in 2-4MPH beach winds with a little leg work.

I have two of the earlier models, and have never had trouble with the LLEs.  If it is an original, the LSs will be reinforced at the ceter tee end.  Replacements spreaders are impossible to find.

I normally fly mine on 75 or 100' 90# lines.

 
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Reply #5 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 11:20am

DaveH   Offline
Senior Member

Posts: 275
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Good questions, Bill. This is just my take on it, but when the Illusion was at the top of the Prism line, I remember reading it was winning major comps in both Precision and ballet.  I think the Elixir is plane and simple more of a freestyle kite, whereas the Illusion was more of a comp kite.  I don't know that I'd do the LLE upgrade. There may also be an availability problem.  Hopefully Kid will clear this up.
The tip wrap thing may just be how it went for me.  I remember the Fanatic and the Illusion being tough with tip wraps and when the Elixir came out I didn't have near the trouble.  But with the Fanatic as a tip wrap trainer....

Finally, yes, I would consider the Illusion a ballet/precision kite capable of doing the tricks of its day. I think of these as the group of moves prior to the backspin whcih preceeded the pitch based style of flying.   The plus side is, axels and flatspin type moves look much much better on kites like the Illusion.  Just my opinion.  Hope that helps Smiley
 

Ice E2&&Jungle E2&&Citrus E3&&2010 Graphite E3&&red 4D&&Aqua QP std&&Blue QPstd&&Blue QP vented&&Blue QPSUL&&'98 Illusion&&Seattle made Fanatic '98, I think&&Elixir&&Ozone&&&&
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Reply #6 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 11:36am

streamhawk   Offline
Senior Member
NW AR

Posts: 423
****
 
so Dave, it excells moreso with rotational type tricks then, correct? And good summary Turk, got both those kites (Oz and Proph), that will go a long way to tell me how to fly it then. What a nice trio to have out on a variable wind day, eh? Plus, I have a light frame for the Proph too, courtesy of the Kid. Cover all my basis for a day of ol skool.  Thanks guys!

Bill

p.s.
just heard back from the owner, LLE's are the beefed up version, so I'm good on that I suppose. PLUS, he's throwing in the old video catalog tape from the "way back machine" (1995). Cool! I'll fire up the old VHS deck, have Sherman set the way back machine, I'm all good.

B

 

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Reply #7 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 11:40am

Jim_kantaxel   Offline
Old Timer
Bothell, WA

Posts: 620
*****
 
Bill,
I couldn't tell by the pictures of your kite on photobucket, but it appears to be the same color scheme as our early model, which has the old style mylar:


...

It reminds me of the Fanatic in how you have to treat it for axels and flatspins and I know there are those that can backspin it.  (not me of course) Cheesy

You will enjoy it I'm sure Cool

Jim
 

Bagged:Mostly Prisms (ONE! short of everything) ... ...... ...
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Reply #8 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 11:44am

streamhawk   Offline
Senior Member
NW AR

Posts: 423
****
 
yep, looks about the same Jim, definitely the same color scheme.. except the one I'm expecting seems to have more curvature to the leading edge, or did you have yours totally tensioned for the photo? Kind of excited about getting a "new" kite, no matter what it's age is!

Bill
 

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Reply #9 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 11:51am

Jim_kantaxel   Offline
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Bothell, WA

Posts: 620
*****
 
streamhawk wrote on Mar 15th, 2010 at 11:44am:
yep, looks about the same Jim, definitely the same color scheme.. except the one I'm expecting seems to have more curvature to the leading edge, or did you have yours totally tensioned for the photo? Kind of excited about getting a "new" kite, no matter what it's age is!

Bill


It was totally untensioned for the photo....I took about 14 pics of classics that day and didn't really have time for 'tensioning'.  The Illys have a total Vapor look to them when tensioned and once at Wskif, our '97 vapor was mistook for an Illy..kinda hard to believe cause there was virtually no wind, but........... Lips Sealed

Jim
 

Bagged:Mostly Prisms (ONE! short of everything) ... ...... ...
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Reply #10 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 12:07pm

the kid   Ex Member

*
 
I'd agree with most everything said here but personally I like the Classic Illy (flew one yesterday) on150 # lines.  Two reasons ... when the wind picks up the kite exerts a bit of pull and I worry about snapping lighter lines.  Also in lighter winds the heavier lines seem (at least to me) to drop out of the way faster helping you to avoid those nasty tip wraps.

As Dave mentioned the early Illy's had an issue with snapping lower leading edges.  Prism had Avia make some rods specifically for the Illy with "mid-rod" re-enforcement where the LLE fitting goes. So far as I know (and I have searched) these are now "unobtainiums".

That said I would encourage you to get one.  A delightful trip back to "old school" ballet flying.  
 
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Reply #11 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 12:10pm

Jim_kantaxel   Offline
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Bothell, WA

Posts: 620
*****
 
Steve wrote on Mar 15th, 2010 at 12:07pm:
I'd agree with most everything said here but personally I like the Classic Illy (flew one yesterday) on150 # lines.  Two reasons ... when the wind picks up the kite exerts a bit of pull and I worry about snapping lighter lines.  Also in lighter winds the heavier lines seem (at least to me) to drop out of the way faster helping you to avoid those nasty tip wraps.

As Dave mentioned the early Illy's had an issue with snapping lower leading edges.  Prism had Avia make some rods specifically for the Illy with "mid-rod" re-enforcement where the LLE fitting goes. So far as I know (and I have searched) these are now "unobtainiums".

That said I would encourage you to get one.  A delightful trip back to "old school" ballet flying.  


So what would one 'fix' the leading edges with if 'one' were to snap 'em.  I ask that cuz I'm getting ready to gl fly something.....anything....except a 4D, ie Tongue


 

Bagged:Mostly Prisms (ONE! short of everything) ... ...... ...
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Reply #12 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 12:28pm

streamhawk   Offline
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NW AR

Posts: 423
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Steve wrote on Mar 15th, 2010 at 12:07pm:
As Dave mentioned the early Illy's had an issue with snapping lower leading edges.  Prism had Avia make some rods specifically for the Illy with "mid-rod" re-enforcement where the LLE fitting goes. So far as I know (and I have searched) these are now "unobtainiums".

   


I'm with Jim, what's the next best thing to make a fix with? Gotta be something that's fairly close. Hopefully I don't break the kite, but you ain't flying if you're not...

Bill
 

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Reply #13 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 12:28pm
stringplease   Ex Member

 
If I was going to do a re-frame on a Illy Classique I'd be leaning towards SkyShark Nitros.. At least that is what I've been thinking lately.

Mainly, for now, I'm thinking: "Just don't bust it.."
 
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Reply #14 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 12:31pm

DaveH   Offline
Senior Member

Posts: 275
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When I bought mine new I got a couple of spares which I thankfully haven't used.  I also got the Lower spreaders which I guess are pretty rare.  In all the years I've owned it I've only broken one stick.  That was when you could walk a block off the beach and buy sticks for any kite.....
 

Ice E2&&Jungle E2&&Citrus E3&&2010 Graphite E3&&red 4D&&Aqua QP std&&Blue QPstd&&Blue QP vented&&Blue QPSUL&&'98 Illusion&&Seattle made Fanatic '98, I think&&Elixir&&Ozone&&&&
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Reply #15 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 12:35pm

streamhawk   Offline
Senior Member
NW AR

Posts: 423
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DaveH wrote on Mar 15th, 2010 at 12:31pm:
   That was when you could walk a block off the beach and buy sticks for any kite.....


ahh, the good ol daze.............

Bill
 

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Reply #16 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 5:40pm
Svolazzo   Ex Member

 
For what I know, Prism has discontinued the original LLE made for the Illusion. You can only buy a standard G-Force spar. The "custom" LLE made by Prism featured an internal tapered ferrule inserted in the LLE at the point where the lower elbow fitting attaches, I don't know exactly the length of it, I should inspect the LLE of one of my Illusion to have an idea. The difficult thing would be to make the right shape of the reinforcement ferrule to properly fit the spar. Maybe I have both type, the early without the reinforcement and the late...but I have to check them. I guess that the early had a different mylar pattern at leading edge panels: only rectangular in the early, rectangular plus X shaped in the late.
 
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Reply #17 - Mar 16th, 2010 at 1:31am
stringplease   Ex Member

 
I thought it was just a build up on the spar, not an internal re-enforcement?
 
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Reply #18 - Mar 16th, 2010 at 4:01am
Svolazzo   Ex Member

 
Quote:
I thought it was just a build up on the spar, not an internal re-enforcement?


It was for sure internal, the spar seems absolutely as a regular G-Force seen outwardly.
 
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Reply #19 - Mar 16th, 2010 at 8:09am

the kid   Ex Member

*
 
The rods that Avia made were built up on the outside.  There was an obvious hump in the rod.
 
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Reply #20 - Mar 16th, 2010 at 8:28am

must86   Offline
Old Timer
Long Island, NY

Posts: 620
*****
 
Hi Bill,
You're going to love your new-to-you Illusion, I think. The Elixir and Illusion are my favorite older Prism kites. I'm not sure if my Illusion is one of the older ones with the questionable LLE, but I haven't had any troubles with it, never broke anything on it, and have flown it in winds up to 20mph. I fly mine on 150# lines, 75'-85'. I have flown it way down below 5mph of wind, and it's an absolute slow motion dream. Very precise, and does axels and 540s beautifully.
I prefer it to the I2K hands down, have no trouble with tip wraps, unlike the I2K. It's hard to say if I prefer it to the Elixir, depends on the day & the mood, I guess.
I hope you have the same great experience with yours as I have had with mine !
~Rob.
...
 
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Reply #21 - Mar 16th, 2010 at 10:12am

streamhawk   Offline
Senior Member
NW AR

Posts: 423
****
 
hey thanks Rob. I wrapped up the deal with the owner, kite and the old catalog video will ship out tomorrow. I think this kite will make a great addition to my classic, discontinued Prisms. It'll have to really be something to surpass my Proph though.
Bill
 

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Reply #22 - Mar 16th, 2010 at 4:05pm

must86   Offline
Old Timer
Long Island, NY

Posts: 620
*****
 
Hey Bill...
I don't know, the I2K and the Prophecy were kind of the same for me, just didn't click. I actually just let my Proph go in trade for a kite that I'll fly more. Padded bag and all... I don't know what I was thinking  Shocked

No, really, I was too worried about damaging it when I did fly it, so I didn't fly it very much. The kite that I traded for will get WAY more airtime.
I enjoy the Illusion alot, and it has a spot in my 'A' bag full time. I'm sure you'll be impressed with it, especially considering how old it is vs. how well it flies. Let me know if you need an I2K to go along with it, making room in my bag...
~Rob.
 
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Reply #23 - Mar 16th, 2010 at 4:18pm

Jared   Offline
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Posts: 87
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I still love my Prophecy!  I just wish I knew anyone else who had one (locally) so that I could try team flying with it.

Of course, I mostly fly it at festivals, because it's big, rainbow colored and impressive.
 
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Reply #24 - Mar 16th, 2010 at 4:53pm

must86   Offline
Old Timer
Long Island, NY

Posts: 620
*****
 
Sorry I sent mine off, Jared. I had the spectrum colors, too, they would've looked good in the air together. I never got to fly mine with Edward, either, he's got one that matches, too. So, there's still hope to fly with him if he comes out of retirement.
If it's any consolation, you can fly what Steve sent me from Tasmania...
 
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Reply #25 - Mar 17th, 2010 at 6:29am

DaveH   Offline
Senior Member

Posts: 275
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Congrats, Bill!  Great find  Wink
I also like the Elixir and classic Illusion best of the old Prisms.  Of course, I still really like my Fanatic Smiley
I never liked the way the I2K looked compared to the original. 

Have fun and give us a fight report Wink
 

Ice E2&&Jungle E2&&Citrus E3&&2010 Graphite E3&&red 4D&&Aqua QP std&&Blue QPstd&&Blue QP vented&&Blue QPSUL&&'98 Illusion&&Seattle made Fanatic '98, I think&&Elixir&&Ozone&&&&
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Reply #26 - Mar 17th, 2010 at 2:05pm

the kid   Ex Member

*
 
To clarify ... the classic Illy lower leading edge has reinforcement mid-rod at the place where the spreader fitting sits.  It also has extra re-enforcement at the large end of the lower spreader.
 
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Reply #27 - Mar 19th, 2010 at 9:35pm

Gardner   Offline
Junior Member

Posts: 50
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One of the quirks of the I2K is that the bridle line from the upper spreader to the center-T seemed to act as part of the frame as well as being part of the bridle.  If that line became slack, or just a little loose, the I2K became a dog Angry.  When the kite was on, it seem to me to be capable of flying circles around the classis Illusion Smiley.  I also have a couple of those.

Mark also made a couple of mods to the I2K.  Just off the top of my head, the lower spreaders were shortened and so was a standoff(?).  Both made considerable difference.

Now the Elixir was a different horse from the Illusions.  But, both were thorouhbreds  -- a Kentucky race horse and a western quarterhorse.

Gardner
 
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Reply #28 - Mar 20th, 2010 at 12:57am

must86   Offline
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Long Island, NY

Posts: 620
*****
 
Gardner wrote on Mar 19th, 2010 at 9:35pm:
One of the quirks of the I2K is that the bridle line from the upper spreader to the center-T seemed to act as part of the frame as well as being part of the bridle.  If that line became slack, or just a little loose, the I2K became a dog Angry.  When the kite was on, it seem to me to be capable of flying circles around the classis Illusion Smiley.  I also have a couple of those.

Mark also made a couple of mods to the I2K.  Just off the top of my head, the lower spreaders were shortened and so was a standoff(?).  Both made considerable difference.

Now the Elixir was a different horse from the Illusions.  But, both were thorouhbreds  -- a Kentucky race horse and a western quarterhorse.

Gardner

Gardner...
Thanks for that tip, I'll have to check mine. You described perfectly the way my I2K performed the last time I flew it. I kinda liked the way the I2K looked, especially the rainbow fabric ones. There was just a rainbow fabric I2K available for a good price on flea-bay, and it didn't sell.  Shocked
I would've bought it in a second if I enjoyed flying my I2K... Oh, well.
~Rob.
 
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Reply #29 - Mar 20th, 2010 at 1:02pm

Gardner   Offline
Junior Member

Posts: 50
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Rob,

The easiest way to take up any slack, after setting up the kite, is to move the knot on the in-haul lines up.

First set up the I2K.  Then check the reverse turbo line for slack.  If there is any slack, remove the in-haul line from the center-T, loosen it and move the knot up the line just a tad.  When retightening the knot , be sure that the point where the turbo  lines tie on the in-hual is the same-- about 3.5 inches.

Measuring from the spine, the in-hauls on my four 12Ks measure 22 inches.

Other measurements are:  top haul, 26-9/16ths;; outhaul, 23.5 inches: turbo line, 15 inches.

Parts measurements are: inside standoffs (Jaco connectors) base to tip, 9-11/16ths including vinyl tip; outside standoff, 7 inches including vinyl tip; lower spreaders, 30-3/8thds inches.

Also, after tensioning the leading edges, be certain that the bow in each is the same.

Hope this is of some help,

Gardner
 
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Reply #30 - Mar 20th, 2010 at 6:16pm
Svolazzo   Ex Member

 
must86 wrote on Mar 20th, 2010 at 12:57am:
Gardner...
Thanks for that tip, I'll have to check mine. You described perfectly the way my I2K performed the last time I flew it. I kinda liked the way the I2K looked, especially the rainbow fabric ones. There was just a rainbow fabric I2K available for a good price on flea-bay, and it didn't sell.  Shocked
I would've bought it in a second if I enjoyed flying my I2K... Oh, well.
~Rob.


Do you mean this one?  Cool Wink

...
 
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Reply #31 - Mar 20th, 2010 at 6:30pm

must86   Offline
Old Timer
Long Island, NY

Posts: 620
*****
 
Gardner, thank you so much. The first few times I flew the kite, I thought it flew great, but it changed (or I changed) at some point, and I've flown it rarely since. I actually 'borrowed' the 5pt spreaders many times to fix other kites. I have it ready to fly again, but I'll check to see if the bridle is proper. If Mark Reed said it was his favorite kite at one time, I should give it another chance...

My I2K... simple colors that scream 90's to me...

...

~Rob.
 
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